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 The relationship's dynamic

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SoldierG65434-2
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PostSubject: The relationship's dynamic   Sat May 08, 2010 12:18 pm

The way that the fandom and Kubo himself has portrayed the relationship between Sofion and Yoruichi has always perplexed me. Generally, Soifon a blushing and submissive while Yoruichi is confident and dominant. While this makes sense in respect to their characters personalities, almost every other aspects of these two points to a inverted dynamic.

First, let me make a point that this is all based off of; traditionally speaking, in human societies the males have had the dominant role.

Now, relating this back to the topic at hand, Kubo seems to have gone out of his way to portray Soifon in a very masculine light. She's rather androgynous looking, as well as being one of the stricter and more brutal Captains. She's never referenced her own femininity, something that almost every other Bleach female has done at least once. Kubo has also attached a lot of phallic imagery to her.

In contrast, Yoruichi is obviously a woman and takes great pleasure in using her body to tease people. She also turns into a (male) cat. "Neko" is Japanese for cat, but it is also Japanese slang for a feminine lesbian. Admittedly, Yoruichi did used to refer to herself with male pronouns, but that's something that's fallen by the way side.

I guess there's no way for me to say this without sounding mildly sexist, but everything points to Soifon filling the masculine role in the relationship and Yoruichi filling the feminine. Social norms (and especially strict Japanese culture) say that Soifon should be the more dominant one, but that has never been the case.

I've just always found it odd that their relationship's dynamic is the opposite of what you would expect it to be. Not that it's a bad thing.

What do you guys think about all this?

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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Sat May 08, 2010 6:09 pm

I agree with what you said, sexist as it may be (and Japanese is a very sexist culture). I thought about that before, and I find YoruSoi even more interesting because of it; they don't fit in the usual roles we would expect. Maybe their dinamic would fit better in a context of a young boy in love with his confident teacher, or something like that.

(And I loved your phallic references, really)
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Sat May 08, 2010 6:17 pm

i completely agree about the phallic references. i'll get back to you on the rest later.

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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Sat May 08, 2010 6:21 pm

Anil wrote:
(And I loved your phallic references, really)
siyentista wrote:
i completely agree about the phallic references. i'll get back to you on the rest later.
There is a thread out there on some anime website about how Soifon was going to peg Baraggan with her dildo Banki.

I'm serious. The posts are actual very amusing to read. It's a shame I don't remeber the site.

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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Sat May 08, 2010 6:38 pm

crap i had something elaborate typed out but the forum spazzed on me.

anywho to sum up what i wanted to say, i agree with everything soldier had said. i think i mentioned it on numerous occasions on the yorusoi fc at BA...
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Sat May 08, 2010 6:43 pm

yeah, it's bad enough that she has a stinger on her finger... but specifically the middle one? hahaha

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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Sun May 09, 2010 10:11 pm

Agreed with thoe points ~
Even thought Soi always acts like a lovestruck idiot while being around Yoruichi I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of Yoruichi being the man in the realtionship and Soi being the female.
Doesn't sit right with me which may come from personal experience or whatever.

I don't mourn over it too much - but it still bugs me a little ~
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Mon May 10, 2010 12:36 am

man I may be hated for this but I always thought of Yoruichi being the "man" and Soi Fon being the "woman" it fits them better this way to me and also with the manga being a shohen type and Yoruichi being more of a main I can see why they put her as more of the man since the men are the mains..

(sorry for any miss spellings my head an't feelin good XP)
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Mon May 10, 2010 9:09 am

Hm - when I look at Soi I can't find anything girlie.
While she often is portrayed with female clothes on promo pics and in fillers I don't buy that.
For me she's a total tomboy and it suits her the best IMHO.
She acts very manly, has a male haircut and facial expressions.

While Yoruichi also wears a more...male / combat suited outfit she appears as more feminine to me - with her haircut and facial expression - especially the eyes. And she has a more feminine figure.

So while they both don't wear really feminine clothes in the manga (like Rukia - dresses and such) Soi still strikes me more as the male.
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Tue May 11, 2010 10:21 pm

Maybe because it's because I've read a good amount of yuri manga/fanfiction before getting into YoruSoi, but their roles they play in their relationship make sense to me. The reason I read yuri is because characters very rarely(besides in schoolgirl yuri where the younger girl is almost always fawning over her sempai) fall into the character archetypes that plague most media depicting heterosexual romance. Usually in yuri you have two people who could be considered even in their relationship instead of having the male/female, dominant/submissive, seme/uke characters. I don't know, like I said, it just makes sense to me.
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Tue May 11, 2010 10:25 pm

Dr-Tom wrote:
Maybe because it's because I've read a good amount of yuri manga/fanfiction before getting into YoruSoi, but their roles they play in their relationship make sense to me. The reason I read yuri is because characters very rarely(besides in schoolgirl yuri where the younger girl is almost always fawning over her sempai) fall into the character archetypes that plague most media depicting heterosexual romance. Usually in yuri you have two people who could be considered even in their relationship instead of having the male/female, dominant/submissive, seme/uke characters. I don't know, like I said, it just makes sense to me.
I understand what your saying, and I would agree with you if Kubo hadn't gone to such lenght to paint Soifon in a very masculine light.

Not that I'm really complaining. The fact that the dynamic between these two is so...perplexing is a bit refreshing.

Oh, and welcome, by the way. Can't say that I remeber seeing you on the FC, which is a good thing as it means that new blood is joining.

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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Tue May 11, 2010 10:44 pm

SoldierG65434-2 wrote:

I understand what your saying, and I would agree with you if Kubo hadn't gone to such lenght to paint Soifon in a very masculine light.

Not that I'm really complaining. The fact that the dynamic between these two is so...perplexing is a bit refreshing.

Oh, and welcome, by the way. Can't say that I remeber seeing you on the FC, which is a good thing as it means that new blood is joining.

That's what I'm saying is why he portrays Soi as the blushing girl when around Yoruichi. Because in every other aspect she's very masculine. It's a way to remind us that Soifon is female and it breaks the archetype. Well, would break the archetype if YoruSoi ever became canon. As it is right now, Soi is just another archetype of masculine girl who goes shy and girly only when around her crush....

Thanks for the welcome, and no I never posted on the FC at BleachAsylum. Never made an account, just went there looking for recommendations of YoruSoi fics and only just recently. Found this forum through it though so made an account here because I do like the pairing.
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Thu May 13, 2010 6:42 pm

I think Soi is the male side of Yorusoi. I agree with you Azley and Dr-Tom. Soi has male haircute, we never saw Soi at Manga in girlie clothes. When we see her wearing dress or something more female is in extra bleach.
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Fri May 14, 2010 1:04 pm

I don't think two women really fall into a "who is the man in the relationship" thing. Honestly, people ask me that all the time. "Who's the man, you or Joy?" Well, the answer is neither; we're both women. Sure, we both have qualities that some would consider masculine. But I imagine even women in straight relationships have qualities like that, but no one asks them because they are already dating a man. When you think about it, the man and the woman in a straight relationship should also be equals - the only reason people say "who's the man" is because there's still that sexism of men being inherently superior to women.
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Fri May 14, 2010 1:40 pm

CaptainYoruichi wrote:
I don't think two women really fall into a "who is the man in the relationship" thing. Honestly, people ask me that all the time. "Who's the man, you or Joy?" Well, the answer is neither; we're both women. Sure, we both have qualities that some would consider masculine. But I imagine even women in straight relationships have qualities like that, but no one asks them because they are already dating a man. When you think about it, the man and the woman in a straight relationship should also be equals - the only reason people say "who's the man" is because there's still that sexism of men being inherently superior to women.

I agree that, idealy, both partners, regardless of thier gender, should be equal. However, YoruSoibis obviously not an equal relatioship and Kubo seems to have gone out of his way to portray Soifon in a male light. And given Japanese culture, it's interesting to see the "man" in the submissive role.

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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Fri May 14, 2010 2:18 pm

TBH in my relationship I'm the "man" because I'm more male than my GF.
Like it or not you never have a fuzlly equal relationship - nor a straight one and not a homosexual one.
One of the two is always more feminine.
And if you have two tomboys the one who is less tomboyish is considered the "woman" in the relationship.
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PostSubject: Re: The relationship's dynamic   Fri May 14, 2010 2:35 pm

I guess it depends on the relationship. I really couldn't tell you who is more like a man in mine. XD Joy and I are both tomboys, and neither one of us dresses particularly feminine. I guess really we'd both be more like men.
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