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 Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque

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PostSubject: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:05 am

If your a resident of the United States and have had your television on in the past week, you've undoubtedly heard about a scheduled Qur'an burrning by a Florida Pastor.

Over the week, a fire storm has rightfully broken out about this, especially since the burning is taking place on September 11th. Recently, however, there has been a shift in the discussion about this. Sarah Palin on her Facebook account equated this demonstration to the proposed NYC Islamic Community Center saying:

Quote :
People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation – much like building a mosque at Ground Zero.

And this is where the debate is now focused.

Is this a fair comparison to make?

I'm not questioning the constitutionality of either topics or even the tact. All I want to discuss is the claim that the Islamic Center and the Qur'an burning are congruent.

My personal view is that they are not for several reasons. The first and primary is that the First Amendment, the one that both these are being defended under, does not protect incendiary speech. It does not protect your right, to use a tired expression, protect your right to shout fire in a crowded theater. Is the speech is going to cause harm, it is not protected, and even though the burning hasn't taken place yet, the Taliban are calling for vengeance in Afghanistan, which is placing US troops in (more) danger.

On top of that, Terry Jones is obviously not of sound mind. If you just listen to the man talk, it's painfully clear that he either does not understand the implications of what he is doing (psychotic) or doesn't care about them (sociopath).

The Islamic Community Center on the other hand, is very different in nature. The property was owned well in advance of the September 11th terrorist attacks, and as late as 2009, Fox News mentioned the Center positively. It wasn't an issue until the election season rolled around and the Republicans were on the ropes.

So to me, it is not an appropriate comparison. What do you all think?

The one good thing that has come of all this is that there seems to be a collective "Oh!" moment in the mainstream media. They are starting to realize that this whole story was created by them because they are the ones that have given him so much coverage. If they had just ignored him, then the gathering of his parishioners (which amounts to literally tens) would probably gone unnoticed.

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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:28 am

i havent been following this story on the news, so i dont know what the updates are, other than everything you had mentioned.

whether or not this is a fair comparison really depends on the intentions of the imam who plans on establishing the mosque. i can see why the mosque would be considered an insult to 9/11 to most americans (although, i am of the opinion that clinging on to that day is rather sad), but surely the imam does not mean to intentionall provoke. while terry clearly means to provoke an entire religion (judging from the worldwide protests, and from his interviews).

that being said, i personally think its a very unfair comparison.

HOWEVER, if the imam chooses to ignore terry, and goes ahead with establishing his mosque, that is clearly provocation. while he does have the freedom of expression and the right to practice and promote his religion, it certainly isnt wise to publicly defy and ignore an entire nation especially when islam is already under such a bad light. islam cannot risk being stubborn.
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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:06 am

I am not American in any way, but had Canadian friends, and American family, that died that day. I don't believe is is a fair comparison what-so-ever.

As for the mosque, I really think that they should be able to build it there. It is not on the sight of Ground Zero, hence no harm is being done. It's as President Obama said while at the Pentagon Sept.11, it was not the Islamic people who carried out what happened those nine years ago, and neither was it the Muslims. It was the Taliban. The people of Islam and Muslims should not be feared, rejected, or seen differently because of the choices of individuals. They had no say in what that group did, and there were people of Islamic decent that worked there that lost their lives as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:40 pm

Yoruichi Fon wrote:
As for the mosque, I really think that they should be able to build it there. It is not on the sight of Ground Zero, hence no harm is being done. It's as President Obama said while at the Pentagon Sept.11, it was not the Islamic people who carried out what happened those nine years ago, and neither was it the Muslims. It was the Taliban. The people of Islam and Muslims should not be feared, rejected, or seen differently because of the choices of individuals. They had no say in what that group did, and there were people of Islamic decent that worked there that lost their lives as well.

I completely agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Tue Sep 21, 2010 1:49 am

They reason people are rebelling against it is becasue A) They fear the unknown and refuse to look into it, and B) Think that if they allow the mosque to be built, then they will no longer be able to pin what happened to the Islams and Muslims. Learn to be excepting people. The world is changing and moving on, with or without you. :/
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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Tue Sep 21, 2010 2:59 pm

Why take ANYTHING Sarah Palin says seriously? XD The fact that that bimbo was the best minority the Republican party could find to attempt to take advantage of the diversity among democrats brought about by the Obama-Hillary run for the nomination is proof of just how truly elitist rich white male that party truly is.

Of course the two aren't comparable. The only people who would think that are the same ignorant fucks who support the birthers, or believe the tea party to be a legitimate and socially poignant organization.

It doesn't really matter what the truth is, though. People are ignorant. especially in America. To ole Barbara Joe, living in rural Kentucky, there is no distinction to be had between Muslims and the Taliban. both a different, and thus to be feared. Therefore, of course, rather than being seen as an attempt at showing unity or support to the muslim people, of COURSE building a mosque at ground zero is a conscious insult to the victims of the tragedy.

The republicans must hold fast to this argument, not only because contradicting every move by Obama is their raison d'etre this term, but also because being xenophobic and intolerant has always been their strongest suits in controlling the minds of the ignorant and strongly religious, a group which, sadly, holds powerful sway in this nation.

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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Tue Sep 21, 2010 4:14 pm

Catlove wrote:
Why take ANYTHING Sarah Palin says seriously? XD The fact that that bimbo was the best minority the Republican party could find to attempt to take advantage of the diversity among democrats brought about by the Obama-Hillary run for the nomination is proof of just how truly elitist rich white male that party truly is.

Say what you will about Sarah Palin, but she does now possess the power to (mis)direct conversations, as she demonstrated here. The concept of equating the Qur'an burnings and the Islamic center didn't exist until she opened her (fat) mouth.

For those of you who did not follow the story closely, the burning did not happen, but only after Terry Jones was made a fool of. He was told that a deal was made to move the Islamic center in exchange for him not burning the books. Once he realized that such a deal actually never happened, he was basically shamed into backing down.

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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:59 pm

Catlove wrote:
there is no distinction to be had between Muslims and the Taliban.

There is indeed a distinction between the Taliban and Muslims. Muslims are just the normal people of that religion. The Taliban is an extremist group.
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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:56 pm

She's got you there, Cat.
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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:08 pm

Yoruichi Fon wrote:
Catlove wrote:
there is no distinction to be had between Muslims and the Taliban.

There is indeed a distinction between the Taliban and Muslims. Muslims are just the normal people of that religion. The Taliban is an extremist group.

If you're going to quote me, please quote using the proper context. What I said, in its entirety was:

Quote :
To ole Barbara Joe, living in rural Kentucky, there is no distinction to be had between Muslims and the Taliban. both a different, and thus to be feared.

In essence, that while the educated minority see no problem with the issue of the mosque, to the blue collar average american, the difference between one muslim and another is invisible, as muslimism itself is different from the American norm, and thus to be feared.

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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:26 pm

And he got you right back.

It's an unfair comparison. One is purposefully antagonizing an entire religion, the other just want to worship their God.

For obvious reasons Terry Jones must not and cannot be allowed to burn that book. As for the mosque. Well, I feel it's better to avoid misunderstandings. Sadly, the majority of americans believe that all muslims are taliban. From that p.o.v., yes the mosque is a bad idea. I think they should up and build it elsewhere for a different reason. If doing something is going to cause more harm than avoiding it altogether, well, avoid it. Building the mosque will cause the ignorant masses to complain. Some may even get violent. Building it elsewhere will avoid that. I say move it. That simple.
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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Fri Sep 24, 2010 3:30 am

Yes Crimson, that would be the right and smart thing to do, to a point. You move that mosque, and then all of a sudden, those ignorant people think they were right, and the government listened to them, and they can keep on making what ever they think to be right happen, whether it is right or not. Ignorance isn't bliss, it's as annoying as all hell, and they use it as a crutch. By giving in, they believe they will win every freaking time.
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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:56 pm

The best way to fight ignorance is with education. Instead of not building the mosque, I say build it, and give the ignorant people a reason to learn.
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PostSubject: Re: Terry Jones and the "Ground Zero" Mosque   Fri Sep 24, 2010 2:15 pm

Imam Rauf and everyone behind the Park 51 Islamic center find themselves in something of a catch 22.

On the one hand, they have every right to build on their property whatever they have the zoning permits and whatnot to, and bending to the protest of such extreme elements in the American discourse will paint the image abroad that Islam is not welcome in America, because even though the freedom of worship and peaceable assembly is protected under the first amendment, those rights are not extended to Muslims. And if that is the message that goes abroad, then that is fuel to the extremest elements of that religion.

But ignoring such an overwhelmingly negative response to the project can easily be seen as provocation. Islam's image in America is severely wounded, if not completely destroyed, and as Lizzay pointed out, "Islam cannot risk being stubborn."

The only people who win in this situation is the Republican party, who has shamelessly capitalized on this z=xenophobia to whip up thier base into a frenzy for the mid-term elections.

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