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SoifonShihoin
Fatalicious
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aniimal
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SoldierG65434-2
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 12:24 pm

Oh come the fuck on! Another transformation? Really?
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Crimson Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 1:03 pm

Aizen has finally become my most hated villian
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PolarisAmane
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 3:42 pm

Chapter's up!

And it's booooooooooooooooring!!

God damn, Kubo! He actually had a chance to make Bleach interesting again.
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 3:46 pm

i always considered aizen to be a buttlerfly going through metamorphosis. this is just funny.

and i absolutely hate the whole romantic vengeance thing going on. Facepalm
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Crimson Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 3:58 pm

I like it.
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Fatalicious
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:20 pm

I don't think this chapter could have pissed me off any more, within the bounds of what could have been written
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SoldierG65434-2
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:32 pm

I have one word to describe by thoughts on this chapter:

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!
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CaptainYoruichi
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 11:36 pm

I think we all saw Aizen not dying. Still, it is disappointing. We got a flashback for Gin, so his chances of survival are low now.

I don't understand how Aizen had the Hougyoku in that flashback, though.
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raezura
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 12:16 am

For once I actually thought Kubo was going to go through with killing off Aizen.

But of course not.
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CaptainYoruichi
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 2:13 pm

So here's a nice little wrench in things. It seems like this was actually Gin's first time seeing Rangiku.

Check this out.

Here's the scene where they first met. GinRan meet for the first time.

The background--the house is clearly burnt like it is on page 18 of this chapter: here.

It's when they met and Gin gave her persimmons. And maybe made up the story about food so that Rangiku didn't know that he saw the whole thing.

The third seat that Gin killed was probably one of those same guys. In a way I was right; Gin had his reasons for killing the third seat, but everyone, including Aizen, assumed he was just doing it for lulz, and Gin just let people think that.


Last edited by CaptainYoruichi on Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SoldierG65434-2
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 2:22 pm

So basically it looks like Kubo is destroying one of the last interesting characters in the series.

...goddammit...
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CaptainYoruichi
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 2:26 pm

Ooops, I'm a little bit off. I should have read more. Here's a more detailed explanation from a discussion at Bleachness.

Quote :

- Gin's outfit in the first flashback panels when he is sauntering about collecting twigs and spying on Aizen's trio of thugs, is white.

- In the latter flashback, towards the end of the chapter when Gin finds Rangiku in the woods, his outfit is entirely different, it's black with some sort of pattern on it (here). Identical to the outfit worn by him when he initially met Ran (here in chapter 129, as shown upthread). That and the background definitely confirms that the latter flashback in this chapter is a fleshed out version of their first ever meeting.

- What this means, is that Gin stumbles upon poor Ran after those goons have their way with her, introduces himself, helps her out etc.

- They then begin to bond, and at some point of course, their feelings grow for each other, so much so that when Gin comes upon those very hoodlums later on (white outfit, as shown here) along with their ringleader Aizen, his mind is set upon his convoluted, extreme path of revenge. And I am almost 100% sure that the minion who was shown in sharp focus this chapter is none other than the third seat of the fifth squad. Which would also explain Gin shafting the dude in cold blood.

- Which ultimately brings me to my conclusion that between the time when Gin and Ran first met, and the time when he spied on Aizen and his goons (it could be days, weeks, months or even several years. Time in SS flows differently after all), their relationship must have had such a tremendous impact on the little bugger (i.e. rah rah pheeeeelings), that he set upon his very labyrinthine path of gunning for Aizen's blood.
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Crimson Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 4:34 pm

OOOOoooooooh. Now I understand. I like Gin even more now.
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Catlove
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 12:33 am

haha, never thought I'd see the day I agreed with Soldier about anything. XD

terrible revelation that makes Gin seem incredibly stupid. "They did mean things to this girl I just met, so I'm gonna devote my life to taking down their leader, in the process causing hundreds of innocents to suffer and putting the life of the girl I'm avenging on the line at least twice"

Smooth, Gin.

and then there's Aizen. *shrug* Say what you will about the HM arc, but it's Shakespeare compared to the Deicide arc. This storyline has been one giant case of "Aizen's dead... NOPE! fooled ya!"
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Fatalicious
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 12:45 am

Quote :
I don't understand how Aizen had the Hougyoku in that flashback, though.

Kubo has decided to go with the classic, "Fuck logic, I'm gonna do whatever I damn well please." And frankly, It really is demolishing my few reasons to keep reading this.
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Crimson Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyFri Aug 06, 2010 2:00 pm

So I'm alone? Seriously you guys need to lower your standards. Naruto did that to me. It was great! Then we hit filler and I stopped watching and reading, entirely. Till, recently. In fact I think Kubo is trying to model Aizen on Kishimoto's Madara Uchiha (Invincible, seemingly dies but refuses too, can only be killed by main character, was thought to be something he wasn't .Madara was though an incompetent Tobi, Aizen was thought a nice little Captain, etc., etc., etc). Death Note also did this to me with L's death. I couldn't stand his replacements but read on anyway and now I can't hate it. Plus I watch a lot of B-class anime and read even more B-class. That helps, the authors don't reach for the stars.

To tell the truth. the only anime/manga that are truly great A-class (I would even call them S-class) is Outlaw Star, .hack//SIGN, Rurouni Kenshin, G Gundam, Cowboy Bebop, and Wolf's Rain. You now, old-school Toonami.

All the rest fail eventually. And sadly, hard too. You just have to lower your standards. It's hard, but manageable.
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Catlove
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptySun Aug 08, 2010 6:26 am

My standards for shonen are ungodly low. When characters I care about are around, I'm in hog heaven, even if the story's crap. when characters I don't care about take center stage, I'll have next to nothing good to say about it.

Currently, every character I ever gave a rat's ass about in Bleach is dead, hence, the only reason I continue to read it is for the lulz. Just as once Kabuto dies in Naruto, I'll only read it for the lulz.
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CaptainYoruichi
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptySun Aug 08, 2010 12:35 pm

Should we lower our standards or should Kubo write better? Hm There are people who think Kubo is a genius, and in some ways he does tell a good story, and he's never going to please everyone, but some of the choices he has made have just been completely Facepalm
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PolarisAmane
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptySun Aug 08, 2010 6:08 pm

I don't see why we should lower our standards just because Kubo can't write a decent story. I'm actually a little unsure if my standards for shonen manga could go any lower.

I don't expect Shakespeare from Kubo, but I do expect at least a coherent and entertaining story. The SS arc proved that he easily capable of writing a good story, with excellent characters, and great fights and pacing. The trouble is, Bleach should have ended with the SS arc. kubo clearly didn't have any clue what to do after that.

The HM arc was just fight after fight, that were mostly the same, and admittedly some great characters, but it was very little in the way of plot progression. Same problem with the FKT arc (if you can call it that) fight after boring ass fight and some characterisation for the shinigami. But then he wasted the espadas and treated them horribly.

This Deicide arc has been the biggest waste of ink Bleach has ever seen since Chad's fight. Aizen is a boring antagonist, he's killing the series. With Gin's betreyal Kubo really had a chance to do something interesting and up Gin into the sadistic badassery that's always been foreshadowed for him. Instead we have Gin doing it for... love.... and he's apparently a nice guy.... and now he's probably dead.

And Aizen gets another fuckin' power up! he didn't eveen need the first one! I actually liked Aizen till he started all this shit with the hogyoku. Aizen doesn't even haave a character anymore. And he can't even be killed on a cellular level... All of the characters apart from Ichigo have been made utterly pointless. What on earth can they possibly do to Aizen?

So yeah.... this chapter was arse. And I refuse to lower my standards to accomodate the utter shit that Bleach has become. I'll still keep reading it though, because I like the characters and the art is very pretty.
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptySun Aug 08, 2010 9:38 pm

At first, I found Crimson Warrior's call to lower our standards absurd. Why should we "dumb" ourselves down in order to enjoy something? As people, we should be constantly striving to better ourselves, not worsen.

But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that he is essentially right.

Think about it; Bleach is at it's core a serialized comic strip who's target audience are adolescent Japanese's boys. And yet we are expecting masterful storytelling and in some cases a socially progressive message. That's a pretty tall order for something that is, at it's core, an empowerment fantasy.

On the other hand, Kubo has shown himself to be capable of telling a borderline great story. Bleach, up until the end of the Soul Society(fuck...) arc was a truly something to behold. It was shounen, but Ichigo's reigns were being held by a female (Rukia). It was a slice of life, but the hero's extra curricular activities were poorly hidden and openly commented on by his peers.

And once things actually turn to the Soul Society(grrr), Bleach further distanced itself from the pack by including a rich cast of secondary characters that still mattered and were, in most cases, more compelling than the central cast. Then, something closely resembling a civil war breaks out amongst century old beings that had been living in (assumable) harmony for decades. There were so many parallel stories running at once, and they all were important. Ichigo is training in bankai, Kyoraku and Ukitake are preparing to intervene in the execution, Hitsugaya is suspicious and is conducting an investigation of sorts...

The whole thing was such a rich and layered story, and it's probably because Kubo spent years planning it. Since then, the storytelling and characterization in Bleach has become increasingly lazy. Why is Sui-Feng so hell bent on the blind enforcement of the law to the point that she's willing crush a young girls rib's and look her in the eye while she does it? Because the woman that she idolized was branded an outlaw. Why is Yammy so angry? Because he represents rage.

I do think that we are a bit unrealistic at times in what we demand of Bleach, but then again, Kubo has shown that he can deliver.

Aizen is still a shit villain, though, by any rubric.

And as for who has the lowest standards; I don't think you can get much lower than a guy who hates the genre of manga/anime in general.


Last edited by SoldierG65434-2 on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Crimson Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyMon Aug 09, 2010 1:55 pm

Interesting point of view. My favorite part of bleach was everything up to the HM Arc. Even when I go back and read it and notice sooooooooooooo many mistakes, I don't care because the story is awesome. My favorite is Byakuya's disappearing scarf.
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyMon Aug 09, 2010 2:07 pm

Crimson Warrior wrote:
Interesting point of view. My favorite part of bleach was everything up to the HM Arc. Even when I go back and read it and notice sooooooooooooo many mistakes, I don't care because the story is awesome. My favorite is Byakuya's disappearing scarf.

Bleach is riddled with continuity errors. Some of them are minor, such as Sui-Feng suddenly wearing sandals instead of her shoes in one panel, but others are outright contradictions that drastically alter how the Bleach Universe works.

Kubo has a tendency to say something at one time to make a character sound cooler or more powerful, but not actually think about it later. The clearest example of this is when Ichigo and Ishida fight the Menos. Ishida makes the comment that Ichigo's reiatsu is like a faucet that's constantly on and never loosed pressure. It's constantly flowing at full force. But later in FKT, Isshin says that Captain's have to carefully monitor their reiatsu, lest their swords look like skyscrapers. If the latter is true, then Ichigo would have the biggest sword in the land, because in the beginning, he wasn't in control.

Kubo said one thing to make Ichigo seem more powerful and impressive, and then contradicted it later to make the Captain's (and more specifically Isshin) seem more powerful.

An interesting thing to note is that the major contradictions don't happen until after the SS arc.
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Crimson Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyMon Aug 09, 2010 2:54 pm

True, Like how Rukia said the Special Royal Task Force has to deal with one Menos... Yet we clearly see Captains take them down without any effort and the SRTF (The Zero Squad) has yet to make an appearance, despite Vasto Lordes appearing (The espada are Vasto Lorde right?)
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 5:52 am

SoldierG65434-2 wrote:


Kubo has a tendency to say something at one time to make a character sound cooler or more powerful, but not actually think about it later. The clearest example of this is when Ichigo and Ishida fight the Menos. Ishida makes the comment that Ichigo's reiatsu is like a faucet that's constantly on and never loosed pressure. It's constantly flowing at full force. But later in FKT, Isshin says that Captain's have to carefully monitor their reiatsu, lest their swords look like skyscrapers. If the latter is true, then Ichigo would have the biggest sword in the land, because in the beginning, he wasn't in control.


Uh no... Ichigo's zanpakuto is stuck permantly in it's release, which is exactly why it's not the size of the sky scraper. Isshin was talking about the unrealsed zanpakutos.

Crimson Warrior wrote:
True, Like how Rukia said the Special Royal Task Force has to deal with one Menos... Yet we clearly see Captains take them down without any effort and the SRTF (The Zero Squad) has yet to make an appearance, despite Vasto Lordes appearing (The espada are Vasto Lorde right?)

That can be blamed on a mixture of the fact that Kubo didn't decide on the Captain system until just before Byakuya and Renji showed up, and also Bleach was clearly meant to end on the SS arc. Until that point there weren't stronget hollows. I'll forgive Kubo that retcon, it makes sense tro help prolong the series.

It's the ones that don'y seem to make any sense or are flying straight in the face of the overall story. Like AIzen apparently already having the hogyoku... I'm hoping for a good explanantion for that one.

.... oh, and I still refuse to lower my standards. Just so you guys know.
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PostSubject: Re: Deicide Arc   Deicide Arc - Page 7 EmptyTue Aug 10, 2010 6:09 am

keep in mind, I'm not expert at Bleach, and know most of it by the anime and what I've read from pretty reliable sources, and the few chapters I've read....

I wonder with the hogyoku thing, if that wasn't what Aizen created to hollowize shinigami. I don't really know what the hogyoku looks like in the manga (and you hardly seem to see it in the anime), so I don't know if it looks exactly the same or not... but wasn't the TBtP arc about disappearances of shinigami, which you then realize is Aizen experimenting on them. Unless he got the Hogyoku out of Kisuke's control, which it seemed to be secured pretty well and in it's place when Kisuke and Tessai got back there after the confrontation, it would seem realistic that he had some sort of way to hollowize souls. And perhaps it was showing the object which he used to do that. (which happens to look like the hogyoku)

and I may be way off seems how I don't really know it that well
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